After8
4:36 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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So you're perfectly fine with free school meals going back to where it was in the past?
And you're perfectly fine for the winter fuel allowance to be reduced to those who really need it?
And you're fine with tax credits being reduced down to only families who have an income lower than the national average?
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Infidel
4:36 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Surface
That's a bit harsh. I have always paid every penny of tax due and without getting all Alan Sugar on you I pay substantially more in to the pot than I take out - and have done for many years.
So you can imagine I bristle a bit when told I want to change policy in ways that don't cost me personally.
Everything costs me, because I am one of a relatively small group of people (about 5% of the population) who together fund all the public services for the other 95%.
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Infidel
4:33 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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A8
"However he's also a hypocrite as he recently supported the middle classes and the rich still having their children fed for free by the state at lunch time, still receiving tax credits aka a bung from the state and for rich pensioners to receive free travel paid for the state and a free christmas bonus otherwise known as the winter fuel payment by the state too "
I don't support any of those things.
Have you got me confused with someone else?
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
4:31 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Infidel 4:13 Wed Jul 26
It's a question of degree.
I would agree that the UK economy could do with a little more labour flexibility and it is a fact that its relative flexibility compared with Germany and France has been a factor in halting the UK's long-term relative decline.
However, you propose to hit the reset button back to about 1910 which is both morally wrong and practically impossible. You also want to keep all the stuff that suits YOU, like the free education that provides you with a cheap well-educated labour supply and civil order, but nothing that costs YOU personally.
Frankly, there is little to choose between you and a medieval noble. And a fucking French one, at that.
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After8
4:28 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Infidel is partly right. No political party will touch nhs reform, the climate change act or the foreign aid budget for fear of the bbc and "independent" charities which are actually socialist cells.
However he's also a hypocrite as he recently supported the middle classes and the rich still having their children fed for free by the state at lunch time, still receiving tax credits aka a bung from the state and for rich pensioners to receive free travel paid for the state and a free christmas bonus otherwise known as the winter fuel payment by the state too
And it is a sheer fact that the daily mail, so beloved by infidel had a front page saying "at last a politician unafraid to be honest with you", praising May for being open about what she'd cut and then the next day turned around and berated her, leading the charge against her plans.
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Westside
4:15 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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By contrast measures to 'protect' employees - minimum wages, employment tribunals,, maternity leave etc - have precisely the opposite result. far from protecting workers they deter investment, drive up unemployment put large numbers of people on the dole.
Don't think that is true. The employment rate, is currently at it's highest ever level in the UK. We have all of what you describe in the way of workers protection.
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Infidel
4:13 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Surface
We hear all the time from politicians in private (and especially in their memoirs) that their hands are tied because they can't do what's necessary because they'll lose the election.
That's why for example nobody proposes to introduce co-pay to the NHS - even though everybody knows it would not only save but dramatically improve the health service.
It's also why nobody dares to tackle the deficit. Or let Greece go bankrupt. Or scrap the Climate Change Act. Or stop all the foreign aid.
I think it's the refuge of weak politicians who lack the charisma, intelligence and electoral trust to sell these things - the right things to do - to the public.
I accept that we are saddled with awful, dull, unimaginative and often deceitful politicians who couldn't sell a lemonade on a hot day but we do occasionally get inspirational leaders who actually lead.
Next time one comes along we might get some change.
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DaveT
4:11 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Infidel 3:36 Wed Jul 26
My second choice was right. You are talking complete bollocks
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
3:44 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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You're an idiot.
We are where we are. Over the past 200 years working people (and that would include much of what we now call the middle class) have been granted social and employment welfare rights. To take them all away at once as you suggest will end up with rioting and disobedience so bad you will be wearing a stake for a neck-tie.
if you're going to fantasise about a Randian utopia (note my correct choice of word), you'll have to preface any posts with - 'this is pure economic fantasy or theory into which social factors have not been factored'. Otherwise people are rightly going to think you are a silly sod.
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Infidel
3:36 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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I am a game theorist.
That means looking at the domino effects of changes in policy and trying to predict what will happen.
In general I would do things that make it easier and cheaper to start and run a business in the UK.
That will encourage lots of people to start businesses and also attract foreigners to invest in the UK, building factories, R&D centres and the like.
That will drive up employment, which is a good thing not only for the economy but also for the workers themselves, because it drives up wages.
In a full employment situation nobody cares about employment tribunals because if you lose your job you can walk into anther one on Monday morning, probably at higher pay.
By contrast measures to 'protect' employees - minimum wages, employment tribunals,, maternity leave etc - have precisely the opposite result. far from protecting workers they deter investment, drive up unemployment put large numbers of people on the dole.
One of the problems economists have in explaining these effects - which are actually little more than common sense - is that there is a significant time lag involved. The economy turns like an oil tanker and policy changes take time to work through.
Ratcheting up worker protection schemes might not have any effect at all on employment this year but it will start to bite at some point.
We are going to have 77 million people in the UK by 2050, apparently. that's 13 million more than we have now. Robots and AI are going to obliterate a large number of manual (and even skilled ) jobs in the meantime so getting serious about long term supply side reforms is not an esoteric exercise - if you want your kids to have gainful employment that is.
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DaveT
3:18 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Infidel 2:13 Wed Jul 26
I hope you are on a wind up with sprouting this type of complete bollocks
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SurfaceAgentX2Zero
2:42 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Inf
Who are you going to sell your stuff to when the state is brought down by the civil disorder that your draconian proposals would inevitable bring about in times of economic downturn?
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Infidel
2:39 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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winstone
That would be assault, which is a criminal offence and for good reason.
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Johnson
2:37 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Just sacking them is fine, ray.
Any comment on westside's post, Brains?
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ray winstone
2:36 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Inf, and maybe beat them with a stick twice a day just to let them know how lazy and feckless they are.....
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Infidel
2:13 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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We should do away with workplace tribunals, at least in the private sector.
If you own a company you should be able to hire and fire whoever you want, whenever you want.
There should be no requirement to give a reason for dismissal. It's a private company. Nothing to do with the state.
The market is self regulating. The vast majority of employers are very decent and look after their staff well, for the obvious reason that staff tend to be more productive when they are happy.
If some employers choose to be bastards then that's their right - they own the company. When word gets round that they are bastards it will count against them when they come to hiring good people, which is how it should be.
The big issue we have isn't employers - it's employees, large numbers of whom are lazy, feckless, dishonest and troublesome.
What's more they are much less productive than their European counterparts (although that's not entirely their fault).
That's why employers need the ability to get rid as and when they want, without the threat of a costly court case from some do-gooding lawyer.
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Westside
2:04 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Under the system currently in force (before today's decision), people of low income could reclaim the cost of the fees, under the Remission System.
I would have thought that low paid, would be the working class?
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Johnson
1:58 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Quite right ray, everyone in employment is working class and not one person from the middle classes or above has ever been affected by this.
Why are you so stupid?
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ray winstone
1:52 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Poor old Tories, trying their hardest to cane the working class but sometimes they just can't get away with it, good to see common sense prevail......
The Supreme Court has ruled that workplace tribunal fees are unlawful, forcing the Government to repay more than £27m forked out by employees for cases around unfair dismal, discrimination and other workplace issues since July 2013.
Trade union Unison said on Wednesday that thousands of people had been charged for taking claims to tribunal since fees were introduced by Chris Grayling, the then Lord Chancellor.
"The Government is not above the law, but when ministers introduced fees they were disregarding laws many centuries old, and showing little concern for employees seeking justice following illegal treatment at work,” Unison general secretary Dave Prentis said.
He described Wednesday's ruling as "a major victory for employees everywhere".
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/supreme-court-employment-tribunal-fees-unlawful-plaintiffs-women-gender-uk-companies-lawyers-a7860521.html
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Johnson
12:10 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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I haven't noticed you being thick that's all, ray.
Still, you keep up the friendly left leaning side of politics with cheap paedo jibes.
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ray winstone
12:07 Wed Jul 26
Re: General Election 8th June 2017 declares May - (Monotonous arguments PT2)
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Johnson, you haven't stalked me for a while, is it because your girlfriend just started her school holidays?
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